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wrestlingjudoka
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Bedfordshire
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 Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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A very interesting debate and one I can undertsand as I failed my 3rd Dan many years ago because I did not bother to learn the Kata. I had taken part in the St. Ives grading and won all my contests by Ippon and then was asked to complete the kata - I had not practised the kata and declined to demonstrate - Failed on the spot.
After a talk from Robin Otani on the importance of senior grades setting an example by knowing the Katas I realised my mistake. The following year I won all my contests by Ippon and completed the Kata. I did the same for fourth and fifth Dan.
No here is my point I am over fifty years of age and find Katas are hard on the body with all the break falling required. I prefer to contest because I can control what is happening to me. I think it is wrong to think people want to carry on doing Kata after their contest days are up (by this time they have probably learnt all the katas and can pass their knowledge on) but to think it is a softer option to contest - you are very wrong.
I take on board what people are saying about finding it hard to find clubs that teach kata but I have found DVD and even You Tube can help.
I also understand what Ogoshi is saying - to some of us contest is much more enjoyable than kata - but Ogoshi both have a place!
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Stephen
The Older I Get the Better I Was!
http://bedfordjudouk.webs.com/
www.bedspolicewrestlingclub.webs.com |
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ogoshi
Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 21
Location: NORTH WEST
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hiya Wrestling judoka
I agree both have a point i just dont understand why judoka who prefare to do kata can do just that but judoka who prefare competition cant stick with that.
I also agree Kata is very difficult and also as you said as hard on the body as competition.
As for you having to have the knowledge of kata to set an example having some knowledge or experience of competition judo would also be needed to set an example as a senior grade.
Obviously im not a fan of kata this does not mean i dont understand the effort time or skill that is needed to perform it all i am trying to say is does it really need to be forced on all judoka when other aspects of judo are not. |
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Jonesy
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Firstly to help move things along, judo is neither a martial art nor a sport. Judo is in fact an all-round education system and pedagogy based inter alia on neoconfucianist values, traditional Japanese martial arts (koryu ) and modern Western educational principles. In particular, judo emphasises the holistic educational value of training in attack and defence, so that it can be a “path,” or way of life, that all people can participate in and draw benefit from.
Arguably, the most complete written definition of judo is that provided by Join Oda-sensei (9 dan) in his encyclopaedic work of 1929 - Judo Taikan (“An Overview of Judo.”)
“Judo is the most effective way to use the power of the mind and body. Its training cultivates the body and spirit through the practice of attack and defence; the essence of this principled moral code [or “path”] is learning through self-awareness. Therefore, judo was innovated so that the ultimate objective is to perfect oneself and benefit from life. In summary, judo is the most effective way of using the mind and body for the benefit of oneself and others.” (…)
As to kata, well kata is an indivisible part of judo. Judo contains shiai, randori and kata. Not one of these parts is optional! |
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techman
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 79
Location: cumbria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Well said Jonesy
For the less informed site users(Of which I am sometimes one)here is the definition of Pedagogy. You see not only a good site for debate, but educational with it!!!
ped·a·go·gy
ped·a·go·gy [péddə gòjjee]
n
teaching: the science or profession of teaching
[Mid-16th century. Via French < Greek paidagōgia "duties of a slave who leads a child to school" < paidagōgos (see pedagogue |
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Macaitch
Mr Judoka!
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 220
Location: Dundee
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| ogoshi wrote: | as far as im aware please correct me if im wrong judo is a sport, infact its an olympic sport.
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Corrected: See Jonesy's post. Judo is an activity that has a sporting element. It is not, per se, a sport. I struggle to come to terms with people saying judo is a sport full stop. Nowhere in its history have any of the greats of judo seen it as such. I don't understand where they get the notion from and having got the notion, I struggle to understand why they maintain it in front of such overwhelming evidence that the likes of Kano, Mifune, Oda, Abe and even more modern exponents such as Kashiwazaki pointedly say otherwise.
I'm not sure, either where the argument comes from such as "why judoka who prefare to do kata can do just that but judoka who prefare competition cant stick with that. " I've never hears anybody point out the value of kata substantiate their perspective by saying that people should just do kata. It's a bit of an Aunt Sally that one. Judo is an integrated activity.
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Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. |
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wrestlingjudoka
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Bedfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I agree with what Jonsey is saying Judo is a path or way and there is a place for shiai, randori and kata but of course that is not to say we don't have our favourite.
Jonsey my Japanese is not very good but it appears my English is as bad
Pedagogy not a clue what that means.
Why call Judo a sport - to get sport grants! 
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Stephen
The Older I Get the Better I Was!
http://bedfordjudouk.webs.com/
www.bedspolicewrestlingclub.webs.com |
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Macaitch
Mr Judoka!
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 220
Location: Dundee
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| wrestlingjudoka wrote: |
Why call Judo a sport - to get sport grants! |
Absolutely correct.
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ogoshi
Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 21
Location: NORTH WEST
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Then why is it in the olympic games as an olympic sport??
It is nice to think of judo as it was in the past and to respect the founders of judo and there views on how it is supposed to be seen.
but for once why cant we move with the times and realise judo is now a sport lots of people now get involved in judo for that reason.
ok it has lots of history and lots of interesting factors but things have moved on if we like it or not and judo is now a sport!! If your using this just to get grants then that is fraud!
not only that, many who now try to start judo are looking at judo as a sport a competative sport and to try to say its not could put people off as much as it could make them inteterested.
Judo has moved on and it has moved on as a sport right or wrong. lets look in to the future and accept this! |
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Macaitch
Mr Judoka!
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 220
Location: Dundee
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| ogoshi wrote: | Then why is it in the olympic games as an olympic sport??
It is nice to think of judo as it was in the past and to respect the founders of judo and there views on how it is supposed to be seen.
but for once why cant we move with the times and realise judo is now a sport lots of people now get involved in judo for that reason.
ok it has lots of history and lots of interesting factors but things have moved on if we like it or not and judo is now a sport!! If your using this just to get grants then that is fraud!
not only that, many who now try to start judo are looking at judo as a sport a competative sport and to try to say its not could put people off as much as it could make them inteterested.
Judo has moved on and it has moved on as a sport right or wrong. lets look in to the future and accept this! |
Nope. If you want to debase something, then obviously that is your perogative. I have no intention of rejecting the principles outlined by the founder of judo. And I do have a problem with those that do in as much as they wish to hijack the whole thing and turn it into something of their own vision. If you are after nothing but a combat sport, have a pop at wrestling, go for MMA perhaps.
As I said, the greats even of the modern era, those that have won huge competitions in Japan still see their art an art that has a sporting element.
Yes indeed we do move on and anyone that suggests that a traditionalist is simply not willing to move with the times is simplyfying argument to beat it - that too, by the way, is a kind of fraud.
If you consider Judo to be just a sport - note here, I am suggesting that those of us with traditional perspectives do accept there is a sporting element, ask yourself a few questions: why do we have a ranking system, within which you cannot go down, for example?
You talk about who goes into judo for what purposes, Well, actually many kids are encouraged to go into judo precisely because it is an art that teaches them discipline and self-respect - if done properly, that is. That side of judo can promoted just as well and is more valid than the concept that everybody is there for a sporting aspect alone.
And here's another aside for you: I can't give figures because it is an impression taken over 30 years of judo and one that others have concerned with: sports judo people are more dangerous to train with, suffering and giving more injuries. Why? Because they see their goal as winning and if that costs, so what? Traditionalists see their training partner as their training partner, not their opponent. Thus they want them safe and sound and happy to train with again next week. It's about precision in the technique not scoring what is fundamentally a hollow point.
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Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. |
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wrestlingjudoka
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Bedfordshire
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Ogoshi,
Judo is not just a sport, yes it does have a sporting side and I for one love that side of Judo, but it is definitely a path and a way. If you treat Judo just a sport you are losing a lot principles. Judo does have a sporting element and that is why it is not a fraud to apply for grants but it also has other elements just as important. Anyone practicing Judo for whatever purpose should take the package as a whole.
It would be very wrong for a Judo Instructor to treat Judo just as a sport and it would be cheating the students of the principles of Judo if that is all you teach. Yes Judo is an Olympic sport and times have moved on but that is what is good about Judo - it moves with the times, it is ever evolving but it still sticks to its principles.
If you want just a jacket sport you could try Cornish wrestling or Uzbekistani Kurash, these are pure jacket wrestling sports. See here www.britishkurashassociation.webs.com and www.cornishwrestling.co.uk.
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Stephen
The Older I Get the Better I Was!
http://bedfordjudouk.webs.com/
www.bedspolicewrestlingclub.webs.com |
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ogoshi
Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 21
Location: NORTH WEST
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I dont really have an answer for your comments. I do not agree with all of the comments that have been posted but i will respect your views and thoughts on things and im sure you can respect mine.
All i would like to add is that the views i have expressed are mine and mine only and do not come from the club or area of judo that i come from! |
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wrestlingjudoka
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Bedfordshire
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Ogoshi,
Of course I value your opinions this is what forums are about - discussion. We all have our opinions and I hope I am open minded enough to change mine if I am wrong. It is not a competition to see who has the best opinion or the right opinion it is a place to share opinions.
Keep posting and keep this forum alive.
_________________
Stephen
The Older I Get the Better I Was!
http://bedfordjudouk.webs.com/
www.bedspolicewrestlingclub.webs.com |
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Chris Judo
Joined: 09 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
Location: North Devon
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: Kata |
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I've just read these posts and agree that Judo is all of these things, but understand what ogoshi is saying about being forced to do it when you would rather focus on one area and others are not forced to compete.
However, I think that what has not been said (forgive my oversight if it has) is that kata teaches correct form and technique, which is easy to overlook or compromise on during competative judo. I'm not over keen on kata and one of my best judo friends really dislikes it, but much to her surprise, when having to do kata found it actually improved her compettition judo, which just shows that it does what it's supposed to do even if it's a little hard to appreciate at times!
The point I'm trying to make is that although you may not like one aspect of judo especially, don't overlook the fact that it can teach you something, about judo or about yourself. It works equally well in competition for example I'm not overly competative, but the more I compete the better my judo becomes.
Sorry, this wasn't supposed to turn into a lecture, but I hope it made sense. |
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